Israel: a dire prophecy
Jostein Gaarder, the author of the global literary phenomenon Sophie’s World (printed in 26m copies in 53 languages), launches a scorching attack on Israel in Aftenposten, Norway’s paper of record. Gaarder, a historian of ideas, describes himself as a friend of the Jewish people but doubts whether Israel truly is the same. Suffice it to say that this will not appear in the New York Times anytime soon.
The form of Gaarder’s condemnation is inspired by Amos, the first Judaic prophet whose message is preserved in scroll (ca. 750 B.C.). Quoting Wikipedia: “The central idea of the book of Amos according to most scholars is that Yahweh puts his people on the same level as the nations that surround it — Yahweh expects the same morality of them all.”
Please note: the below is an unofficial translation with no connection to Jostein Gaarder. Any errors are mine alone. On the other hand, I do not endorse all the views expressed: see my postscript.
There is no turning back. It is time to learn a new lesson: We do no longer recognize the state of Israel. We could not recognize the South African apartheid regime, nor did we recognize the Afghan Taliban regime. Then there were many who did not recognize Saddam Hussein’s Iraq or the Serbs’ ethnic cleansing. We must now get used to the idea: The state of Israel in its current form is history.
We do not believe in the notion of God’s chosen people. We laugh at this people’s fancies and weep over its misdeeds. To act as God’s chosen people is not only stupid and arrogant, but a crime against humanity. We call it racism.
Limits to tolerance
There are limits to our patience, and there are limits to our tolerance. We do not believe in divine promises as justification for occupation and apartheid. We have left the Middle Ages behind. We laugh uneasily at those who still believe that the God of flora, fauna, and galaxies has selected one people in particular as his favorite and given it funny stone tablets, burning bushes, and a license to kill.
We call child murderers ‘child murderers’ and will never accept that such have a divine or historic mandate excusing their outrages. We say but this: Shame on all apartheid, shame on ethnic cleansing, shame on every terrorist strike against civilians, be it carried out by Hamas, Hizballah, or the state of Israel!
Unscrupulous art of war
We acknowledge and pay heed to Europe’s deep responsibility for the plight of the Jews, for the disgraceful harassment, the pogroms, and the Holocaust. It was historically and morally necessary for Jews to get their own home. However, the state of Israel, with its unscrupulous art of war and its disgusting weapons, has massacred its own legitimacy. It has systematically flouted International Law, international conventions, and countless UN resolutions, and it can no longer expect protection from same. It has carpet bombed the recognition of the world. But fear not! The time of trouble shall soon be over. The state of Israel has seen its Soweto.
We are now at the watershed. There is no turning back. The state of Israel has raped the recognition of the world and shall have no peace until it lays down its arms.
Without defense, without skin
May spirit and word sweep away the apartheid walls of Israel. The state of Israel does not exist. It is now without defense, without skin. May the world therefore have mercy on the civilian population. For it is not civilian individuals at whom our doomsaying is directed.
We wish the people of Israel well, nothing but well, but we reserve the right not to eat Jaffa oranges as long as they taste foul and are poisonous. It was endurable to live some years without the blue grapes of apartheid.
They celebrate their triumphs
We do not believe that Israel mourns forty killed Lebanese children more than it for over three thousand years has lamented forty years in the desert. We note that many Israelis celebrate such triumphs like they once cheered the scourges of the Lord as “fitting punishment” for the people of Egypt. (In that tale, the Lord, God of Israel, appears as an insatiable sadist.) We query whether most Israelis think that one Israeli life is worth more than forty Palestinian or Lebanese lives.
For we have seen pictures of little Israeli girls writing hateful greetings on the bombs to be dropped on the civilian population of Lebanon and Palestine. Little Israeli girls are not cute when they strut with glee at death and torment across the fronts.
The retribution of blood vengeance
We do not recognize the rhetoric of the state of Israel. We do not recognize the spiral of retribution of the blood vengeance with “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.” We do not recognize the principle of one or a thousand Arab eyes for one Israeli eye. We do not recognize collective punishment or population-wide diets as political weapons. Two thousand years have passed since a Jewish rabbi criticized the ancient doctrine of “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.”
He said: “Do to others as you would have them do to you.” We do not recognize a state founded on antihumanistic principles and on the ruins of an archaic national and war religion. Or as Albert Schweitzer expressed it: “Humanitarianism consists in never sacrificing a human being to a purpose.”
Compassion and forgiveness
We do not recognize the old Kingdom of David as a model for the 21st century map of the Middle East. The Jewish rabbi claimed two thousand years ago that the Kingdom of God is not a martial restoration of the Kingdom of David, but that the Kingdom of God is within us and among us. The Kingdom of God is compassion and forgiveness.
Two thousand years have passed since the Jewish rabbi disarmed and humanized the old rhetoric of war. Even in his time, the first Zionist terrorists were operating.
Israel does not listen
For two thousand years, we have rehearsed the syllabus of humanism, but Israel does not listen. It was not the Pharisee that helped the man who lay by the wayside, having fallen prey to robbers. It was a Samaritan; today we would say, a Palestinian. For we are human first of all — then Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. Or as the Jewish rabbi said: “And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others?” We do not accept the abduction of soldiers. But nor do we accept the deportation of whole populations or the abduction of legally elected parliamentarians and government ministers.
We recognize the state of Israel of 1948, but not the one of 1967. It is the state of Israel that fails to recognize, respect, or defer to the internationally lawful Israeli state of 1948. Israel wants more; more water and more villages. To obtain this, there are those who want, with God’s assistance, a final solution to the Palestinian problem. The Palestinians have so many other countries, certain Israeli politicians have argued; we have only one.
The USA or the world?
Or as the highest protector of the state of Israel puts it: “May God continue to bless America.” A little child took note of that. She turned to her mother, saying: “Why does the President always end his speeches with ‘God bless America’? Why not, ‘God bless the world’?”
Then there was a Norwegian poet who let out this childlike sigh of the heart: “Why doth Humanity so slowly progress?” It was he that wrote so beautifully of the Jew and the Jewess. But he rejected the notion of God’s chosen people. He personally liked to call himself a Muhammedan.
Calm and mercy
We do not recognize the state of Israel. Not today, not as of this writing, not in the hour of grief and wrath. If the entire Israeli nation should fall to its own devices and parts of the population have to flee the occupied areas into another diaspora, then we say: May the surroundings stay calm and show them mercy. It is forever a crime without mitigation to lay hand on refugees and stateless people.
Peace and free passage for the evacuating civilian population no longer protected by a state. Fire not at the fugitives! Take not aim at them! They are vulnerable now like snails without shells, vulnerable like slow caravans of Palestinian and Lebanese refugees, defenseless like women and children and the old in Qana, Gaza, Sabra, and Chatilla. Give the Israeli refugees shelter, give them milk and honey!
Let not one Israeli child be deprived of life. Far too many children and civilians have already been murdered.
Postscript by Sirocco: I am quite ambivalent about this piece because of how it seems to lay the crimes of Israel at the feet of Judaism, implying that the Jewish religion has failed to absorb the humanism and universalism of Christianity. I think a more apt perspective is the following.
The ideology of hardcore Zionism has evolved into a religion unto itself, bearing a striking resemblance to the pre-Talmudic Judaism of old. However, unlike the latter, it courts a tribal war god that really does exist, and which, unlike Yahweh, demands no sacrifice or expiation of its chosen people, the Jewish citizens of Israel. This God of Zionism is the world’s only superpower, the USA.
Yet its blind patronage may not last forever. And without it, Israel will reap the whirlwind.
Update: Here is my translation of Gaarder’s follow-up article, wherein he clarifies his stance.
Sosialismen vil en dag bli vår alles død.
Comment by atb — August 5, 2006 @ 4:50 pm
If you read Gaarder’s essay as a plea for socialism, then I must question your reading comprehension skills…
Comment by Sirocco — August 5, 2006 @ 5:54 pm
Last night on Bill Moyer’s show “Faith and Reason,” he interviewed Pema Chodron, a New Jersey native who grew up to be a Buddhist nun. They got to talking about religious fundamentalists. Moyers asked her, rather incredulously, if there was such a thing as a Buddhist fundamentalist. “Oh, yes,” she said. It’s the fundamentalists of various religions who are going to be the ones to do us in, and by “us” I mean humanity.
Comment by Gal — August 5, 2006 @ 7:50 pm
I hasten to add that there are political fundamentalists–sometimes the two are one in the same–who are pretty dangerous characters as well.
Comment by Gal — August 5, 2006 @ 7:56 pm
Yakov M. Rabkin - A Threat From Within: A Century of Jewish Opposition to Zionism. This excellent book traces the rise of Zionism as antithesis of Judaic tradition.. from within which anti-Zionists pray for the end of Israel but the saving of Jews..
Comment by me — August 6, 2006 @ 12:28 am
The Lebanon invasion made me do a bit of historical research, actually it was the eternal justification, “they want to drive us into the sea”, that inspired me to investigate whether there is a validity to the Isareli fear, and indeed there is. The reason why Israelis have this seemingly irrational fear is because they themselves did it to the origianal inhabitants of Jaffa. Literally pushed them into the sea and what are today’s Palestinians and Hesbollah are descended from them.
Comment by JohnP — August 6, 2006 @ 9:05 am
The Middle East massacre is like a horrible toothache that wil not go away….for people who live half planet from it…I cannot imagine how people in that place live through it..I have already decided that Israel has gone completely insane…How does an entire nation come to resemble a serial mass murderer as much as Israel does, showing no emotion or remorse, but telling the most transparent lies in denial of what the world knows they have done.I decided some time ago that the country, especially its leaders are pathological….ruth
Comment by ruthwilson — August 6, 2006 @ 5:57 pm
We recognize the state of Israel of 1948, but not the one of 1967. It is the state of Israel that fails to recognize, respect, or defer to the internationally lawful Israeli state of 1948.
Surely even THIS author realises why the 1948 State of Israel no longer exists? That State was attacked by the Arab armies immediately after it was formed. THAT is why we are where we are now. .
Comment by melk — August 7, 2006 @ 8:42 pm
I found that essay to be fascinating, but I hve to say I was disturbed by his “solution” to the problem posed by Israel as a Jewish state. if he took his analogy to South Africa seriously, he’ll realise that the ANC *never* expected white South Africans to leave, knowing that they had nowhere to go and simply we’re Dutch or English anymore. The same is true with the Israelis, especially because of the Holocaut. He can not possibly be advocating ethnic cleansing - that would not be a South African solution be a Zimbabwean one. And we can see which of those two countries is the better model. Surely a secular state that respects the rights of all its citizens isn’t too much to ask for (though apparently it is).
Comment by Michael — August 8, 2006 @ 12:56 am
You’ve done a great job of translating, Sirocco. Thanks.
Comment by Boreas — August 8, 2006 @ 9:42 am
Thanks to all who have taken the time to comment. My own afterthought on this contentious writing, for what it is worth, is now available here.
Comment by Sirocco — August 8, 2006 @ 10:45 pm
If only we Jews could be as moral as you Christians! What hypocritical horseshit. “The Jewish rabbi” my ASS. No european has the right to use such language as anything but satire. Fuck Norway, fuck european moral “superiority”. And fuck pretentious imitation of Amos too.
Comment by solo — August 9, 2006 @ 6:29 pm
hey “solo”!
Stop jugging Norway over ONE man (or our news). It’s not a secret (if you know about Norwegian policy) that we have lots of people who agrees with SVs `(international)policy and works in leading newspappers, but most of us don’t wote for them… Why do you write fuck Norway? Do you know how Norway is? Ì don’t think so.
Comment by Monika — August 9, 2006 @ 6:59 pm
And by the way: Fuck Americans who thinks they can jugde a country they know nothing about.
Comment by Monika — August 9, 2006 @ 7:10 pm
Hi Sirocco, thank you for the translation. I am happy I found you. Take a look of the maps of Israel and Palästina through the years - right from the beginning in 1948 one can see the “trouble”. Which nutcase have designed it? Who gave the UN the right to create a state? Maby the UN should allso take a closer look at the maps and organise it new on a round table with all the countrys involved:
http://www.palaestina.org/landkarten/landkarten.php?name=landkarten
Greetings from Bavaria
Edda
Comment by Edda — August 9, 2006 @ 11:34 pm
“For two thousand years, we have rehearsed the syllabus of humanism, but Israel does not listen.”
That is a little over the top, I guess. Anyway, better to have the whole of it outspoken than just thought. It is sad that those who profit most from having this outspoken are also those who are fighting it most. “Show your determination!” Well, but perhaps it’s best to think first about whom to show it. Neither the author of the above text nor Iran comes to my mind. May the wise strategists of zionist interests reflect a little, perhaps they get a glimpse on the decisions that they have to make today to ensure their future. I even leave a hint: Divide and conquer.
Comment by Nero — August 10, 2006 @ 6:19 pm
The author makes a mistake when he says this: “It was historically and morally necessary for Jews to get their own home.” If the establishment of the Israeli state was the just response to the Holocaust, then the UN would have been responsible for carving a Roma state out of some region somewhere. The Roma were exterminated to the same degree as the Jews; their body count was lower because there was a smaller population. It seems feelings of guilt over the Holocaust may have prompted some nations into approving the division of Palestine into separate states, it was more the result of decades of Zionist political moves. All countries who voted for division share some degree of culpability for the situation the region is in today, because instead of holding elections among the general population to decide the form of government, they arrogantly sliced the region up and parceled it out. White man’s burden, ‘48 style…
Comment by Marjorie — August 11, 2006 @ 7:27 am
Clearly anti-semitic article. At least the author didn’t try to hide his hate even he was trying to keep the artictle morally high and intelectual. I respect his opinion, but what really dissaponted me was his comments about thinking to re-write some things. Can’t keep to his own bullshit, Mr. Spineless Hardtalk. But saying that, I don’t think I am actually insulting the author.
It’s interesting to see that Jews are wrong whatever they may do or not. If they are being slaughtered, well, that was their own fault. If they are attacking (yes, they did that too in the past), obviously it’s their fault. If they are provoked and fighting for their right to exist (which is being obviously denied), well it’s their fault again.
Coming that from Europe sounds very cinical after those mighty eurpoean moral nations tried to brutally kill not only Jews but also Slavs, Gypsies, political enemies. Coming that from the country which cooperated with Nazis doesn’t surprise somehow, one would say. I know, it’s a cheap shot, but hey, I don’t think that the Gaarders article is much different nevertheless 26 Mio sold books.
Dear Monika, didn’t you notice that Gaarder is writing as “We…”? Who are those “We’s”? I’d say Norvegians at the first place. If not, well raise your voice and stop bashing USA. However I was against being lied about Iraq I can’t but stand to say that Israel didn’t do anything wrong this time. They didn’t start the war. Why Lebanon was not able and willing to stop Hizbollah since Israels retreat in 2000? I think the Israels answer is only one possible. It’s also the time to determine who are you with or not. I think the enemy of our civilizations are trying to destroy us (not verbally, but by bombs, knives, poison, gas). We, morally superior, are trying to reach the hand for global understanding. This noble act, is being repeatedly interpreted as our sign of weakness. We are somehow very keen to destroy ourselves.
Comment by dk — August 11, 2006 @ 8:30 am
Mr.Gaarder is a very brave man and his article should be praised by all people who seek a REAL and JUST peace in the Middle East
Comment by Munther — August 11, 2006 @ 8:55 am
Dear Munther
Why is Mr. Gaarder very brave man? What does he risk by writing his essay? His own life? Does Israel calls for his death like some islamistic preachers would do for much less (like comics)? Why is he brave? I do respect his opinion and his right to say whatever he wants? But describing him as brave is very long shot. Only thing he did really put at risk are the lives of Jews in Norway and maybe in World.
Comment by dk — August 11, 2006 @ 11:53 am
Thank you!
Comment by Gareth — August 11, 2006 @ 12:36 pm
To understand the American leadership’s position in the world, read the book “Confessions of and Economic Hit Man” by John Perkins. The lack of empathy by many in my country can be exemplified by the love of money and consequenses be damned. The US congress does not recognize the slaughter of the 1.5 million Armenians in the first world war by what is now Turkey. Neo-cons like Vice President Cheney argued for Apartide in South Africa. Most of our representatives are like him. The Carter Doctrine authorizes the use of military force in the middle east to keep the oil coming to the US.
The neo-con signatories of PNAC, the concept behind neo-conservatism in the US, are either Christian Zionists or Zionists outright. These are the leaders that are continuing the foreign policy of corporatism, making the world safe for American companies and banks to take resources and wealth out of nations that they have targeted for maximum profit while giving little if anything in return to the country that these are taken from. Since America and most of it’s citizens see nothing wrong with this form of capitalism, it should come as no suprise to anyone that the US is dominated by Zionism and Zionist interests and provides billions in military “aid” each year and continually block UN sanctions and condemnations of Israel’s actions. The US is now supplying outlawed weapons and munitions to Israel in the war on both Lebanon and Palistine. Since few American people refuse to educate themselves on the reality of our foreign policy of the past and present, I see no other way but for the outside world to help inform the American people about how others outside American borders view our actions.
Comment by Jim — August 11, 2006 @ 3:28 pm
Thank you Sirocco for the English translation and thank you Gaarder for the article, it certainly is getting quite a feedback. What amazes me about the people that are criticising this work and siding with what Israel is doing is sticking with the intelligent response of Israel has the right for self defense. What they fail to mention and mainly because of racism and discrimination is the killing and destruction that Israel has been inflicting on the Palestinians and Lebanese. While they are so quick to jump at ‘well Hizbullah fired first’ they either neglect or forget the fact that the very existence of Hizbullah and motives were provided by Israel. Lebanese prisoners, occupied land, landmines, violation of Lebanon sovereignty, air, land, and sea, and best of all 18 to 22 years of occupation and opression of Lebanon have given the Lebanese resistance enough reasons to exist. Also, all of these pretend intelligent pro US and pro Israel policies claiming that Lebanon should implement UN resolution #1559, they totally forget about the hundreds of UN resolutions that Israel ignored in an ‘in your face’ manner. I cannot imagine that today and after about 60 years of WWII, there exist a civilization that watches and approves the complete destruction of a country and still fails on purpose of calling for a cease fire. This is not only inhumane, this is barbaric whether they fired a shot or not. Yes, it is expected that a ruthless and anti-environment american president to allow this to happen, it is unimaginable that 70% of people in the US approves Israel’s action. While there might not there be a force today to stop Israel’s tyranny, the level of morale that Israeli’s are at and will reach is enough for self destruction as human beings. It is also true that these days the Lebanese and Palestinians are their enemies, but with economic and military power, Israel will not be any different than the Ottomans or Hitler Germany. I am sad to have seen the Peace Now movement in Israel had supported this war up until yesterday, when they realized that Israel is not really winning, that they reversed their position. It is sad to see a movement called Peace Now not protest because their country is destroying another, but because the war had become an inconvenience to them. Thanks again for the translation. I hope the efforts succeed in stopping the destruction of my country, Lebanon.
Comment by af — August 11, 2006 @ 5:38 pm
dk, israel never stopped invading the Lebanese airspace since 2000, nor has it fully withdrawn from all Lebanese land. you should keep in mind all the history before the incident on July 12. Keep in mind all the injustice israel has caused to palestinians and lebanese who made no choices to be involved in any wars. israel’s apathy for innocent civilian lives can never be overlooked or justified. no matter how many lies it tries to tell, the truth remains. keep in mind people are criticizing the STATE of israel, and not jews. no where in his article does the author attack jews. but unfortunately, you can only scream anti-semitism whenever you are faced with the reality.
there are no enemies to your civilization, you have created them yourselves by the injustices done to their children and their innocent people who only want to live peacefully on their land.
Comment by maha — August 11, 2006 @ 5:42 pm
maha, Israel withdraw 2000. UN-Resolution 1559 recognized that. Sheba farms aren’t part of Lebanon. UNO recognized that as well. I don’t think that a violation of airspace (even if there were any) could give a casus belli for Hezbollah. But, what they asked for they did get it. Tragic as it is and having so many lives on both sides lost it was necessary for Israel to show that they will not accept to be provoked. The answer is drastic and I think that Lebanese should start to think if this was caused by Israel or Hezbollah. I think, that even 6 years after Israel whitdraw and Lebanon was not interested to declare end of the war with Israel, Lebanon was not bothered by Israel.
Saying that State of Israel should not exist an that Jews ar snails without shell, well that’s anti-semitism. Denying Jews their state and their existance is anti-semitism. Why is it hard to understand that. I think Gaarder is anti-semite. This fact isn’t tragic by itself. There are (and were) some very smart people in the world who are/were anti-semitic. I think it’s stupid to disuss obvious.
Israel should withdraw from the West Bank just as it did from Gaza. Somehow I don’t think that would bring a peace to Israelis. Palestinians never missed the chance to left a chance for prosperity and peace to pass by. It’s time to accept the fact that State of Israel is there where it is and that Palestinians missed their chance to have much more then they have it now. They lost the war. Israel got the occupied teritories AFTER IT WAS ATTACKED by Arab states who didn’t want to accept Israel in 1947-Borders. So saying Israel should go back to 1947-Borders somehow doesn’t make me believe that is the endline. Trying to divide SoI and Jews is also very odd move… And are there enemies to “my civilization” or not? If we did created them, then there are the enemies…
Comment by dk — August 11, 2006 @ 6:22 pm
Gaarder’s essay is little more than an orgy of libel, contempt, and hatred, directed first at Jews generally, then at Israel specifically. It is nearly bereft of fact; instead, we find repeated misrepresentations of the Jewish religion, lies about Israel and Israelis, with all of it done up in purple prose, wrapped in the royal “we”, and crowned by the unmistakable arrogance of Christian triumphalism.
Comment by ae — August 11, 2006 @ 7:53 pm
Indeed, it is a rare event when an esteemed author is willing to risk his professional reputation for the sake of personal opinion. Mr. Gaarder’s bravery in expressing opposition and unfavorable views on Israel’s latest Lebanese aggression is admirable but it is not “anti-Semitic”. The tired, old rhetorical anti-Semite accusation when “Jew”, “Jewish”, or “Israel” is used in conjunction with constructive criticism is slowly losing its power to control and manipulate the world. Nonetheless, Zionist Israel perpetuated this myth to the point of absurdity. Mr. Gaarder’s opinions on Israel, although harsh, clearly states what the majority most likely believe, but are too intimidated to express.
Thank you Sirocco for the translation of this paramount article.
Comment by DJ — August 11, 2006 @ 8:00 pm
dk,
You say:
“Israel got the occupied teritories AFTER IT WAS ATTACKED by Arab states who didn’t want to accept Israel in 1947-Borders”.
You got your basic history wrong. Israel occupied Gaza and West Bank after it attacked Egypt, Jordan and Syria on 5 June 1967. Israel also attacked Egypt in collusion with France and the UK in 1956 which started the Suez War.
Stop spreading lies or ignorance. This conflict is bad enough as it is.
Comment by pf — August 11, 2006 @ 8:00 pm
dk - not only was it a tasteless and cheap shot; you were completely WRONG. The Nazis put their own government in Norway whilst the king and the legally elected government were driven to exile. Norway was occupied for 5 years and many Norwegians sacrificed their lives both in the fight against Hitler and to save jews from the concentration camps so to imply that Norway collaborated with the Nazis is a grave disrespect to all those who gave their lives and suffered through the Nazi occupation. Shame on you!
Comment by JW — August 12, 2006 @ 12:10 am
dk, you say that israel did not bother lebanon between 2000-2006, but isn’t it so that israel still has thousands of lebanese political prisoners jailed without trial for many years? how do you think israel would respond to having thousands of israeli political prisoners keep in arab prisons?
Comment by cm — August 12, 2006 @ 3:11 am
Comment by pf — August 11, 2006
You failed to mention that in 1967 Egypt, Jordan and Syria had mobilized their armies directly on Israel’s borders and declared their intention to destroy Israel. So, Israel justifiably struck first. There has never been a more obvious case of self-defense than what occurred in June 1967.
Anyway, Gaarder is a shameful coward because he knows how hip and trendy it has become to bash Jews. What takes real bravery is to express any criticism of Islam. Just ask Theo Van Gogh.
Comment by DB — August 12, 2006 @ 3:12 am
dk,
Your arguments are deceitful and preposterous.
You are unconvincingly trying to spin reality when you say that Israel didn’t start the war: yes, the conflicts was triggered by the kidnapping of two IDF soldiers by Hezbollah, but who started the shelling of residential neighbourhoods and towns all over Lebanon?
It’s quite shocking to read sentences such as Israel didn’t do anything wrong this time. I guess you mean that bombing refugees shelters in Qana, UN bases, ambulances, fire trucks and funeral processions is fine for you.
Anyway. Israel’s campaign against Hizbullah might have has been a nearly complete failure so far, but Israel’s campaign against Lebanese civilians has been a great success.
You say I think the Israels answer is only one possible. Well, that’s like saying that chemoteherapy is the only answer to stomachache. Israel tells Lebanese civilians to flee, bombs them as they do, and in the meanwhile it cuts off all the ways out of the country. Wow. An impressive way to achieve peace and understanding.
It is FALSE to say that Lebanon was not able and willing to stop Hizbollah since Israels retreat in 2000. The disarmament of Hezbollah was an issue on the agenda of the National Dialogue talks that started in February 2006. If you have a memory slightly longer than four weeks, you should bear in mind that Lebanon had to get the rid of the Syrian tutelage (some would say occupation), which lasted until Spring 2005.
Finally, by describing yourself as We, morally superior, you sound just plain racist and, well, in a certain sense you’re just making a point for Gaarder’s criticism of “the notion of God’s chosen people”.
An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.
Why is it hard to understand that?
Comment by Skylark — August 12, 2006 @ 3:46 am
I will await Mr. Gaardner’s next essay in this series, which will address issues such as the treatment of Womeen and non-muslims in Muslim countries, the superiority of Soviet or National Socialist regimes over the current American regime, and the moral equivalence between the what Europe did to the Jews for 1000 years and what the Jews have done in Israel to non-jews in the past 50. Pray enlighten us further.
Comment by GM — August 12, 2006 @ 3:52 am
how hip and trendy it has become to bash Jews.
Oh well, I thought that it was so hip and trendy to bash Islam.
You can build a whole career on it. Just ask Irshad Manji and Ayaan Hirsh Ali.
Comment by Skylark — August 12, 2006 @ 3:52 am
Stick a Fork In It
Because it needs to be said, before they drag us into another of their World Wars.. an excellent article by author Jostein Gaarder via The Truth Shall Set You Free, translated by Sirocco. Some interesting comments following it at the source, includin…
Trackback by Teacup Tempestry - An America First Blog — August 12, 2006 @ 4:52 am
DJ, i still don’t see what is brave in Gaarders action? I don’t define “brave” writing essays in a free country without any danger for your life. I’d define “brave” writing essay against a dictator regime and living in one at the same time (Chine, Iran, North Korea). Denying Jews their right to live is neither new, nor original and for sure not brave.
pf, Obviously Israel started every war in the Middle East. Somehow I still wonder how some states in the Region did manage to make a peace with Israel (Egypt, Jordan) and some not (Syria, Lebanon). I’ve red an article today saying the Arabs are champions in keeping themselves convinced to be alltime victims: never responsible for their own actions. USA, UK, Israel, S. Rushdie, comic drawers, always there is someone to blame. It isn’t surprise that sucide bombers are mostly islamists and arabs. That is the truth.
JW, Norway had a Quisling Government. It cooperated with Nazis even there were Resistance. What I am saying was not that Norway alone was responsible for the co-operating with Hitler. No, the Europe, “morally superior”, was not able to stop Hitler alone either in war itself and even less in attempt to stop him to exterminate Jews. I simply don’t think that Europe has any moral ground anymore to lecture Jews about how to save their own lives. Not at all. Jews will not allow ever again to be slaughtered. And you can think whatever you want about ist, but Israels fear for its own existance is real by acts of terrorists and countries (Hamas, Hisbollah, Iran, Syria) and by words and opinions. Israel is not bothered by anti-semitic attacks like Gaarders, but is very bothered when houndreds rockets are falling on the cities of Israel.
And, Europe was not able to stop Bosnia war also, even this war was in Europe and going over for many years. They sat, watched what happened and kept talking how to implement peace. Nothing happened before USA stepped in with force. After the war the Europeans were the first who started to mourn the victims in Srebrenica and Sarajevo (UN Safety Zones!). To keep the story short: a lot of hot air and no doing. That’s Europe. And this will not go well if we (yes, I live in an Europe) keep looking what is happening to us and don’t do anything to save ourselves. We are too soft, like philosophy and try to find the reason for someones doing after terrorist attack instead of defending ourselves. Again, that kind of doing bussines will always interpreted as sign of weakness. Not being attacked and under pressure as Israel is, Europe simply doesn’t understand the stakes being on the table.
cm, why are those prisoners in Israels prisons? I don’t know but I somehow think there could be plausible reason. A question for you: Do you realy think Israeli would accept to be blackmailed by Hezbollah? Let see: I want do achieve something. I have to ask an other side for a favor (prisoner release). I do not want to declare peace with them even an other side retreated 6 years ago and didn’t do any hostile act against me (in contrary, Hezbollah provoked Israel few times in the past). So, I decide to let Hezbollah (an terrorist organisation) arm theirselves and let them be the part of the government. So far, so good. Now the Hezbollah decide to get some IDF-Soldiers in order to blackmail Israel for prisoner exchange. Hmm, somehow I don’t think this was very wise. I actually don’t beleive Nasrallah was so stupid thinking Israel would accept that. Israel, not caring about PR and only interested in showing its invincebility (also, not very smart!), responded exactly as Nasrallah expected (yes, I beleive Iranians wanted to keep the world busy with something else than their nuclear program). Well, it couldn’t go well… But, somehow I don’t think Nasrallah cared at all about casualties. It’s obvious that Hizbollah armed themselves and was prepared for this war. So, they expected this war at this level and at this moment. They provoked it. Simply as that, no need for conspiracy theories. Why nobody ask why Hizbollah, as a terroris organization, has so many rockets. Not guns, rockets! No, this war was expected, provoked and wellcomed by Hizbollah. I think however, they didn’t expect a massive answer of Israel as it was. Also, you have to ask yourself: was it worth? I think there are no times anymore when Israel release an 1000 Lebanese for 1 Soldier (dead). I really hope Israel will not allow itself to be blackmailed, but we’ll see. So, was it worth!?!?!?
And to be clear, I do think that every life lost in this war is one too much. That makes me angry about the way it started and how it develops. But, I do think it has to be solved by military means. And to my those soft souls who can’t see bombed houses in Lebanon or dead children, women, old, young… Those victims can also be an Israeli children, women, old and young. Rocketing WITH PURPOSE the cities Hisbollah is trying to kill as much civilians as possble. At least (i know it’s kind cynical) Israel drops sometimes leaflets a day or two before it boms the cities. I DO BELIEVE that Israel try to avoid the civil casualties as much as possible. I don’t think it’s ethical to military operate out of schoolyards, hospitals, houses etc. But hey, I somehow think the Israels enemy doesn’t share western standard of ethics. Israel doesn’t have any other possibility to react at this kind of war (guerilla) then the way they do now. And for those who say “don’t be in the war at the first place”: THAT’S NOT AN OPTION! War was brought upon Israel. Those smarties who babbles about prisoner exchange would not like to be pushed or blackmailed themselves, i presume. So, why double standards?
Skylark, “we, morally superior” was meant for Europeans and was meant irronicaly. I hope this brings you peace. About Lebanon: I do know about Hariri assasination and Syria. But, it’s not the problem of Israel if Lebanon can’t keep its shit where it belongs. If Hezbollah attacks another country and same Hezbollah sits in the government…well, what should Israel do? Sit an wait for Lebanese deffend Israel? Or just accept it? What’s wrong with you? I do think that bombing of civilian targets was necessary because Hezbollah operated within. There are legitimate targets than. It’s international law. I can understand that Hizbollah can’t fight otherwise than guerilla, but I also understand that Israel can’t just sit and wait until all rockets are being fired or going house by house trying to exterminate the Hizbollah fighters one by one. They tried that in Bint Jbail and Israel suffered losses because a house was booby trapped. So, Israel does the same as any other country would do: fight for their own existance (yes, Hisbollah want to exterminate Israel just as Hamas and Iran) and fight the war with less own casualties and civilian victims as possible. In that order. Or, do you expect that Israel start looking for civilians (they actually do with leaflets) first and then fight. Maybe even without making any damage? Are you dreaming?
And, I don’t think Jews are threat to this world even close than Islamists who try to destroy it and our way of living. Turn the TV on!
Comment by dk — August 12, 2006 @ 7:46 am
The authour clearly insults the Jewish religion, dehumanises the Jewish people and delegitimises the State of Israel. He forgets that Christianity is founded on Judaism and that Jesus was an Israeli Jew who had he been born today would be in the Israeli Army. He implies that the Christians / Europeans are morally superior.
A few days ago a synagogue in Oslo was desecrated. A Norwegian authour stated that this article was worse than excrement on the Oslo synagogue and I agree.
Comment by Semsem — August 12, 2006 @ 9:50 am
@DB. Following that view the Entente started WW I at 30.7.1914, the treaty of Versailles was a crime and Adolf Hitler a fighter for right and justice.
And while we are at it, somehow the abduction of two soldier as casus belli resembles way too much a raid on a radio station by enemy forces as casus belli. It might be said that that raid was a fake, but then who knows who abducted the two soldiers?
There is a deeper wisdom for the rule of proportionality, smaller events are easier to fake - that is why we all have an interest in the survival of its rule.
Besides, Iran and Hezbollah cannot attack Israel, that follows from geography alone. What they (Shias) do is to show the arab public that they have spirit and are resistant, unlike their own governments. They do that in order to make it more difficult for arab (Sunni) governments to turn their public against Persians or Shias.
Israel does not seem to understand this muslim infight too well, because what they are doing right now is to build a united front against them. Remember that the Shias are a 10% minority. Even if Israel would take them out completely, that would be of no significant military advantage. Israel should rather keep them armed, so that Sunnis are wiery about them.
Comment by Name — August 12, 2006 @ 11:59 am
Slightly off topic, but there are only 4 Lebanese prisoners in Israel. Let me introduce these noble specimens of humanity to you:
1) Samir Quntar who at 16 years of age broke into a house in northern Israel, bravely shot a 4 year old girl in the head, caused her mother to smother another baby while hiding in a cupboard, killed her father and a policeman who came to rescue them.
2) Nissim Nasser of Holon, Israel. Born to a Jewish mother and a Lebanese Muslim father he was tried and convicted of spying for Hezbollah in 2002. He was sentenced to 5 years in prison.
3) A Hezbollah terrorist who crossd the border to Israel
4) A Lebanese fisherman caught spying for Hezbollah.
Comment by Michal — August 12, 2006 @ 12:04 pm
In 10 to 20 years, many of the world problems -including the zionist Israel state- would´nt exist, since then USA would´nt be the strongest in the world and so the state Israel could´nt exist. Hopfully the moslims in Palastina have the same mercy as Salahuddin to forgive the jewish population, that want to live side by side with their moslim brothers and sisters. The essential problem is the stupid US politics not only in Palatina but also in Afghanístan (Supporting persian Tajiks, shiyah Hazaras against the proud Afghans=Pashtoons) and in Iraq (Supporting radical persian oriented shiyahs against the secular sunnis).
Comment by bigi — August 12, 2006 @ 12:10 pm
I do agree that US politics isn’t all good. I said before that i opposed Iraq war because it was a lie. US made some very bad choices in the past: Saddam Hussein was their ally against Iran 20 years ago as well as Pashtun agains Soviets in Afganisthan. But this time they’re right.
Noname, your statement:”Iran and Hezbollah cannot attack Israel, that follows from geography alone”. My answer: ??? Where those rockets are coming from? Lebanon! Delivered and trained by Iran! How can you say Hezbollah can’t attack Israel!? What’s happening then down there!?
Again, for the casus belli: Let’s keep it simple. Hisbollah abducted two soldiers and KILLED eight. No need for conspiracies. It’s simple as that. Hisbollah doesn’t deny it, why do you? And Israel clearly let Hisbollah know that they have to let those soldiers go in order not to escalate the situation furthermore. They didn’t do it. So wake up, please.
Comment by dk — August 12, 2006 @ 2:07 pm
@dk. Wow, you win two battles and fail to even consider the situation you’re in. “Attack”, well you could have deduced from the context that that was refering to the military destruction of Israel. And no, Hezbollah and Iran can’t do that. Follows from geography, no place for a ground campaign.
Secondly, I don’t doubt it that those soldiers were abducted by Hizbollah, but can’t you see that disproportionality does no-one good?
What do you think Israel’s fine example will bring upon Israel if a jewish orthodox group blows up the dome of the rock?
Comment by Name — August 12, 2006 @ 3:29 pm
Well, I am happy that there is no force to destruct Israel at the present time. But, I don’t see what’s your point. Should Israel let rockets fall on its cities and soldiers get killd and abducted just for fun? Why do you not ask how much is Hisbollah responsible for this mess? Disproportionality is there because Israel wants to keep its future losses by Hisbollah as low as possible. It would be colossal stupidity to allow Hisbollah to regroup them, keep their rockets and provoke again in the near future. Do we agree? Someone say “wipe them out”, someone “keept their oprationality as low as possible”. I don’t think Israel can wipe Hisbollah out, but I think the new UN-Resolution will do some good both for Lebanon and for Israel. Still has to be seen how serious it will be implemented by French, US and other countries. If UN-troops aren’t empowered to enforce peace, it’ll be not good. I think this war and destruction upon Lebanon can be much worse than it is. I for sure don’t think Israel stroke fully. And, it is very bad anyway. So, let’s try to stop killing now because it can get much worse. I think it’s in interest of all sides but mostly Lebanese to stop it now. I do hope Hisbollah will be politically eradicated by people of Lebanon. If not, fine. They can do whatever they want as long as they don’t attack Israel. Simple as that. But, all those fanatics declare that they want to eradicate Israel. I hope you’ll understand that Israel will not agree on that.
Comment by dk — August 12, 2006 @ 3:55 pm
As I was already indicating: Hezbollah has its reasons too (see above for details.) Islam is an anarchistic religion with a tendency towards aggression. Everyone does what he has to in order to survive in such an environment. Tension with Hezbollah is not nice for Israel, but if Israel wants to exist, it has to put up with that. You cannot go into some region of the world and think that it will be just like the region you left and if not, well then educate them.
Israel did not hit with full strength, right, after all they have submarines armed with nuclear weapons…, but Israel reacted not appropriate. I’ve seen a picture of Olmert. He looks anxious and bitter, but also honest. He’s still making a mistake. This is not about the education of children. Beating up your child might have a positive effect, this hasn’t and what is aimed at, a change of the general situation of being threatened, cannot be attained, given the realities in that region.
Comment by Name — August 12, 2006 @ 7:13 pm
Why is it that if you say something against Israel your labeled anti-Semitic?
I’m really becoming bored with this label. What the Israelis have done to the Palestinians and their villainous attacks on Lebanon is inhumane.
Secondly, aren’t the ones that Israelis decimating Semites? Aren’t the Muslims and the Christians who have lived in that region for thousands of years Semites? Am I wrong? If not, how can you call people anti-Semites for questioning the Sanity of the government of Israel?
Comment by Patrick — August 12, 2006 @ 7:20 pm
@dk First sorry for my english, it needs a brush up.
It is strange, all arguments who trys to defend the israeli point of view of this terrible destructive agression on the lebanese people and country forget the week before in Gaza. There allready the israeli Army behaved totaly beserk, and is still continuing in the shaddow of the lebanon war bombing refugees camps, destroying houses and killing people with their hightec warmachine.
You say: “It would be colossal stupidity to allow Hisbollah to regroup them, keep their rockets and provoke again in the near future.”
This means you allow only Israel to get the most horrible weapons from their big brother USA, plaines, tanks, battleships, submarins and an and on and on ? What a stange point of view. You can see yourself, as soon as the resolution for an imediate cease fire was pronounced by the UN - what does Israel do? ENLARGEN theit attacks right away. There is no excuse.
Comment by Edda — August 12, 2006 @ 7:47 pm
Patrick
It’s not “something”! It’s a denial of right for Jews to have their state and right to live where they do. That’s anti-semitic, you like it or not. So you be bored, but that’s the way it is. I don’t any other religious group or people who had so much denial for right to exist as Jews did.
It’s true that not Jews are only Semitic in the world. But, it become common to use the phrase for Jews. You can say Gaarder is anti-jewish. I don’t see how that should be better and less stupid as “anti-semitic”?
For the sanity of SoI: What do you propose Israel have should done? Please consider your answer carefully and be sure your government (i don’t know where you live) would do exactly what you propose Israel have should done. Israel is attacked by people who don’t want Israel and Jews to exist. Is it that hard to understand that? It is self-defence! I admit, situation with Palestinian in Westbank and Gaza is different. Israel didn’t have and issue with State of Lebanon. Why then Hesbollah attacked Israel? I am actually asking this question repeatedly here. And all those soft-hands aren’t giving a reasonable answer. Or, you think Israel should be destroyed. Ask yourselves, what is it. If you deny the right for existance for Israel and Jews, well than any discussion here is obsolete. If you think Hisbollah did well to attack Israel, than any discussion here is obsolete. Why do you think Israel was attacked? And if there is any reason other than I think I know (Iran nuclear crisis diversion), then please enlighten me! And, for the second step, ask yourselves was that worth to start the war? Actually it’s very sarcastic to critisize Israel for answering the unprovoked attack. That’s the only thing the anti-semitic (pardon anti-jewish) clowns like Gaarder cannot make dissapear and that makes those clowns very unhappy. We do discuss if Israel has the right to defend itself without asking does Hisbollah has the right for existance. Here. State, there: terrorist organisation. I think, it’s kind of anti-jewish thinking if you expect Israel to accept such a threat and at the same time you expect any other country to defend itself. Obviously there are double standards. it’s ok, but it’s anti-jewish. Be bored or not.
Comment by dk — August 12, 2006 @ 8:13 pm
Name, what would be an apropriate answer for you?
I think Israel gov. played very bad in this situation. In order to keep its losses low they tried to hit and go strategy. Fighting that way they lost so many lives of their soldiers by boobytrapped houses or underground tunnels. They’ve should run for Litani river at the first place. They would have losses as much as they already have but at least rocketing by short-range missiles would stop or be less dangerous. Now they go for Litani when they accept the UN-Resolution. When Palestinians never miss the chance to leave one, Israel never miss the chance to do PR-desaster. Nobody will understand that south Lebanon needs to be cleared of Hisbollah now. They have had to do it from Day 1. Instead they tried bombing Hisbollah from the air hoping they are Serbs to accept defeat without fighting on the ground. I just don’t know who made this big mistake: military or Olmert/Peretz.
Comment by dk — August 12, 2006 @ 8:38 pm
What a brave man! In the World full of Israeli appologists
someone dared to say how dispicible the Israeli agression is!
Recently two Harvard professors defied the Israeli lobby discribing how they manipulate the US foreign policy contrary to US interest. No wonder educated people call US Congress “an occupied territory”.
The jewish state is in a moral decay with its contempt for human life and suffering.
Their brutality and madness with which they destroy the Lebanese lives is shocking.
Unfortunately the politicians are to afraid to put a stop to this.
Comment by Vladimir — August 13, 2006 @ 1:29 am
wow, it is amazing to me how people argue and joust facts and counter-facts about current events that seem impossible to certify. if we can’t be sure about current events how we even consider the truth of written history? it seems to me that we experience things directly and can be certain of them (assuming we are of sound mind), everything else is heresay and we believe the source(s) that we guess are true. am i naive? it seems that resolution in this topic is impossible because people believe different histories and bluff with their selected heresay. dk didn’t really respond to my question about thousands of lebanese prisoners but seemed to believe that it was true, he/she seems to suggest that ‘there must be some plausible reason’ so i guess they don’t deserve a trial being suspected lebanese terrorists. am i right in asuming this dk? it seems to me that this blatent disregard for the rights of lebanese people is far more anti-semitic then anything in gaarder’s essay. next, michal tells us that there are only 4 lebanese political prisoners and he is certain that they are all scumbags. i certainly don’t work for the israeli military police and i assume that michal doesn’t either. so michal you’ve just judged 4 lebanese people that you’ve never met and condemned them to life long prison sentences and they are all semitic people! so doesn’t that make you aggressively anti-semitic? you two people are so quick to judge others for hating groups of people while being extremely unabashed about the groups of people you select to hate. does this make you ‘morally superior’ dk? do you see the double standard or are you blinded by zionist nationalism? why is this so hard to understand? so really much of this dialogue and thousands of ones like it are nothing more than ridiculous peacock dances done by foolish nationalists with invested interests in what they support. i am an anarchist who is born in and has never really left canada and all i’m really totally certain of is that the media here is definately controled by pro-israelis. in all of my 33 years of life, the papers and televisons have definately mourned israeli deaths and pretty much completely ignored the loss of palestinian and other arab lives, in spite of the fact (heresay that no one denies…yet) that there has been way way more casualities on the arab side. doesn’t this fact ,which has been consistent from the birth of israel to the present, not just indictate but certifies that israel is consistantly the agressors in this ongoing dispute? and yet whenever confronted with this fact pro-israels always react irrationally, defensive and paranoid. i am not a christian, jew or muslim and consider myself a humanitarian, but i’ve been called anti-semitic many times. the media here is totally racist and should be charged with hate crimes in my opinion. there have been successful genocides of many indigenous tribes of native people here in canada and there is no recompense, commenoration or even acknowlegdement of the colonialist people’s shame; there blood soaked history of ‘victory’ over the first nation’s people. instead they try to prompt the populace to wave canadain flags and stand on guard like an imperialist soldier when they play the national anthem. fortunately these techniques are not as successful here in canada as they are in the united states but still they persist. anyway the tone and irrational discourse of pro-israeli zionists is the same as the north american neo-con to me. dk, this is your cue to discredit everything i say as anti-semitic. go ahead, it’ll have all the clout of a schoolyard bully who calls the boy with longer hair a faggot.
Comment by cm — August 13, 2006 @ 2:32 am
No, Gaarder is not anti-semitic: leftists (and hence journalists), cannot, by definition, be anti-semitic, like Marx, Proudhon, etc… Only Fascists can be that, obviously.
To be more serious: the whole of European thought (and practice) since Paul (the first of them) are imbued with whatever you call it but which *is* hatred of 1ews. Dunno if it has been translated into English but I recommend reading ‘Les penchants criminels de l’Europe democratique’ by Jean-Claude Milner (not a Jew BTW).
P.S. to the wise Guy who mocks some comments’ spelling or syntax: like myself these authors’ native language is not English and even typing errors are common. When you will speak *their* language as well as they speak English or spell f*** Qusling’s name you will be allowed such comments…
Comment by Man de Hu — August 13, 2006 @ 6:35 am
cm, i am not calling you a faggot. you’re just boy with a longer hair and anarchist. I think the discussion here isn’t being fruitfull neither for me nor for you. At least I think I’ve red your posts carefully. For one I’ve said that “we, morally superior” was meant for European and not Jews. And, it was meant IRONICALLY. It is maybe my faoult not using apropriate marks for it, but it’s your fault not reading my explanation of it afterwards and accusing me of it now. Read my response to Skylark. I know i write long posts but nobody is forced to read it, But if you do, it’s kind a duty to do it properly. And if you make an observation about someones posting in your own than it’s mandatory to read it carrefully. Is it being ignorant or being sloppy?
Secondly, I’ve said I don’t know how many Lebanese prisoners are there in Israels prisons. I am sure they are there for a reason. On the other side you don’t say why are they there and how many are they. So how can I argue on that? One poster did answer that. I don’t know if it’s a true but at least he seems to be substantiated. You, on the other side, don’t say any details about those prisoners.
About hear-say: Ok, what are your details? How did this war started? Is Hesbollah an terrorist group? How Israel should have responded?
For the rest: I am half jew and half muslim. I am not religious at all and considering myself being blessed for that. I live in Switzerland and had left my home because of war in Bosnia in 1992. I am not anarchist, didn’t bully anybody in school ever, I consider me an humanist and was never called anti-semitic or anti-jewish. Probably with a reason… I was never called a blind. In european politics I sympathize with mid-left and left parties even they are usually anti-Israel.
Let me ask you something cm: If you’re so obviously unhappy with the place you’re living now (I assume that from your post), why don’t you go somewhere where you could be happy? It doesn’t mean you’d have to fight for the anarchy and your ideals, but I am sure there are places in this world where you’d be far more happy than in zionist occupied and controlled Canada. Think about it. I actually don’t think you’re anti-semitic. I think your position is based in you being anarchist and (probably) anti-capitalist. It’s ok. I think between your statements and Gaarder’s is a difference. Gaarder is for my understanding clearly an anti-jewish. I am using this term in order to stop the discussion about who ar Semites and who are not. “Anti-jewish” is for my understanding bad and despicable enough.
Comment by dk — August 13, 2006 @ 8:44 am
@dk. As for the abducted soldiers: Israel should have offered 20 arab prisoners, not more. As for the unprovoked attack: There are a number of ways to respond and you should not think that a response has to be immidiate.
More precisely: If Israel wouldn’t have gone for the infrastructure and agriculture of Lebanon but after Hezbollah instead, clearing a belt in the south of it, that wouldn’t have been too much, in my mind.
Israel also could have waited for a nice opportunity to do moral damage to Hezbollah, but if you want “nice” circumstances, you have to be able to wait for them.
I personally think that that last option would have been best, you shouldn’t let yourself dictate the timetable by your enemy.
And I must say one thing about Hezbollah. It is a militia, no terrororganisation. That is insofar important as a militia has certain responsibilities towards the people it claims to represent. In that respect it resembles a state. And as such Hezbollah can be controlled also by other than military means.
Actually, Hezbollah came under pressure after Syria left. They didn’t attack Israel because Iran said so, but because they wanted to improve their standing in Lebanon. A display of courage always helps in the arab world.
But how did Israel react? By making the Lebanese responsible for Hezbollah’s actions they turned a friend into an enemy. Great job. Of course Hezbollah provoked the attack, but it isn’t responsible for its scale, neither is it repsonsible for those who are targeted by Israel. That is Israel’s responsibility and the Lebanese are clever enough to understand that one, may “peace” activists all over the world point out that this is only Hezbollah’s fault as much as they like, words can’t change the mind of someone who lost possession or relatives due to the bad deeds of someone he knows to be responsible.
I hope I made those things clear.
Comment by Name — August 13, 2006 @ 10:18 am
Here you can read an really honest, profound analysis of the problem we are all talking about.
http://www.counterpunch.org/
The autor, Jean Bricmont, teaches physics in Belgium. He is a member of the Brussells Tribunal.
Comment by Edda — August 13, 2006 @ 11:08 am
Name, yes you’ve made your point. I think otherwise. If Hisbollah didn’t attack no one would have benn hurt. Israels response was hard but not hard as could have been. I think that Hesbollah is terror organisation. How do you actually describe terror? I think if someone deliberately and not by mistake try to hit civilians it’s terrorist.
It’s not Israels job to look for lebanese government and society. They were sitting and not doing anything against Hesbollah. After they attacked Siniora wasn’t very busy urging them to return the soldiers. The fact they’re sitting in the government makes the State of Lebanon responsible. I don’t think Lebanese were very friendly toward Israel before war started. for sure they will not be more friendly now, but I think this matter isn’t most important now.
Edda, I think Israel as a state would be much better placed in Bayern and Baden-Würtenberg than where it is now. Don’t you think? Just thinking in proportion of guilt and how to do some good afterwards (Schuld und Sühne). Again, I don’t think you have any morally right to judge Jews at all. You simply historically don’t.
So, my friends, that was my closure. I don’t think we’re getting anywhere then saying what our opinions are. Since I don’t anything new to say, and for sure you didn’t come up with somethin new, it’s best to say goodbye. So be it.
Comment by dk — August 13, 2006 @ 1:07 pm
@dk.”Edda, I think Israel as a state would be much better placed in Bayern and Baden-Würtenberg than where it is now. Don’t you think?”
This was an Idea of the iranian Primeminister, and on my point of view, he was right.
” I don’t think you have any morally right to judge Jews at all.”
You are as free as bird to think what you want. As you seam to be a Moralist - the best say I ever heard about morale is from belgian Poet Henry Beque:
“La morale n`est peut-etre que la forme la plus cruelle de la mechancete.”
Comment by Edda — August 13, 2006 @ 9:26 pm
Israels response was hard but not hard as could have been. I think that Hesbollah is terror organisation. How do you actually describe terror? I think if someone deliberately and not by mistake try to hit civilians it’s terrorist.So, my friends, that was my closure. I don’t think we’re getting anywhere then saying what our opinions are. Since I don’t anything new to say, and for sure you didn’t come up with somethin new, it’s best to say goodbye. So be it.
Yes, it is about time you said good bye. I skipped over most of your rantings and ravings. You are uninformed and a whining hypocrite, assuming all that matters is your opinion.
Now, why do you think someone would say that? Because it is true. Also: don’t assume that you would be welcome in Bayern or anywhere else in Germany. Don’t appeal to Germany’s Schuld und Suehne as you have done for half a century now. They have paid for it and lived with their guilt. Look at yourself and how you behave: you constantly whine about your religion, anti semitism, etc. (In case you have forgotten: you are an Arab. You are killing your own brother and your brother’s children. Do you ever wonder why you are so disliked everywhere? (In addition: your Kosher killing methods are an indication of your brutality.)
Comment by Michael — August 13, 2006 @ 10:53 pm
Michael “Because It’s True” (lol)
1. Why am I uninformed?
2. Being Moslem isn’t the same being an Arab. Anyone should know that. I’ve said what I am and where I am coming from. Where did you get “an Arab”!? Killing my brother? Myself? Are you insane?
3. Are you talking about my other half when you say I am so disliked everywhere?
4. As said before Germany will never be able to pay it enough even Israel doesn’t expect any “payment” for the few milion killed jews. I think in contrary Germany does play very important and great role in this situation and is the great ally of Israel.
5. Kosher killing? I amnot religious and not eating kosher. However, I don’t see how much is better to kill an animal with electric power, nail in the head or else…
6. Edda, this was actually only interesting proposition Achmadinejad made in his recent actions. Since that is not possible to achieve, jews will let Michael to sleep happily without them in Bayern…:)
The End!
Comment by dk — August 14, 2006 @ 5:05 am
Hey Solo.
Yeah, fuck all of Norway and Europe for what one Norwegian guy said. Spoken like a true Israeli. The only people since the Nazis to be that obsessively dedicated to the concept of collective guilt. You monstrous little toad.
Comment by Skallagrimsson — August 14, 2006 @ 8:18 am
Michael, take the test! Haaretz is not being well-known as zionist newspaper.
Link
Comment by dk — August 14, 2006 @ 8:33 am
Edda, maybe I am moralist even I don’t consider myself to be one. What about you? Moralist? Pacifist? Treehugger? What?
Comment by dk — August 14, 2006 @ 12:44 pm
Who I am? Well, I think no one on earth till now found really out, who he is. Therefor he should know where he comes from and where he is going to - and the so called answers found to this questions are all belonging to the vaste region of phantasie. So for shure I know, that I am a human beeing in Transit
) and I try to make the best out of it, what I find on my way.
Shurely I am not a selfrighteous Moralist. I am giftet with a sense of beauty and an instinct knowing what is true and what is a lie. I am a fan of straigt on honesty and I did not loose it so I went troug hell quite often. Guess like the rest of us. And therefor I apreciate verry much Gaarders essay, he speaks out honestly his thougts, eaven the more dark ones. Its ok. If not so many people try to stop it with insultes and intimidations, with ban and silence - a clear, honest discussion would clear up the skys for everybody. I am convinced of it - but who knows if I am right.
Comment by Edda Sörensen — August 15, 2006 @ 11:05 am
Edda, it’s always good that someone knows what he/she is or not. But, instincts could play tricks. Categorizing and judging people only based on their opinion in a single matter is tricky, too. You’re tricked out when you judge and categorize a person based on opinion you don’t share.
Thanks for your thoughts anyway.
Comment by dk — August 15, 2006 @ 2:17 pm
I scored 190 in that test…
Comment by Name — August 17, 2006 @ 7:56 pm
dk is a joke. it is typical of zionist fanatics like him to call any critic of racist apartheid Israel an “anti-semite”.
The only anti-semites are the israelis and their supporters. As there is no justification whatsoever for the existence of israel, they have to continually re-invent so-called “anti-semitism”.
Gaarder is right except for one thing, he accepts the existence of racist theocratic israel. But contrary to what dk says, Gaarder is risking his life. What happened to Rabin?
It is impossible to use the WWII and the holocaust as an excuse for the existence of israel. The racist zionist colonialist movement began well before Hitler came to power, or even before he wrote Mein Kampf. Zionists wanted to steal Palestinian land from the end of the 19th century.
Comment by bernarda — August 17, 2006 @ 7:57 pm
About time people start thinking right and condemning the terrorist state of Zion
Comment by antineocohns — August 17, 2006 @ 10:22 pm
Bernarda, my dear, my dear, my dear
Not every critic of Israel is anti-semitic. I do not agree with SoI in every matter at all. I do think SoI and Israeli are at some point arrogant. But hey, every military and economically strong state is (more or less)! SoI is at some point racist even to it’s own arab born citizens or half-Jews. I do not approve that. I do think however that SoI is much more democratic and therefore less racist than all the countries SoI was and is fighting against for its own existance. I wish for the people of Syria, Iran and some other countires more such “racism”. A similar critic agains totalitary regimes such as Syria or Iran wouldn’t even be heard or red by their citizens because of censorship. Also, I do think there has to be an Palestinian State in 1947-borders. I do, however, think that Israel has to separate itself from Palestinians for good of all.
So exactly where do I fit the “zionist fanatic bs”? Stop trying to make your own posts looking more plausible by bashing and categorizing other posters.
I do think that a person is anti-semitic if he/she denies the right of Jews for their existance in Israel. SoI is recognized state and that is the fact. You may like it or not. Thinking about removing it, destroying it or bubbling abot the Israel’ right to exist will not change anything and time for such thoughts is lost. SoI for ist own sake has to make a peace with Arabs and the neighbouring countires.
So, Bernarda, how about this latest war? Who started it? BTW, let’s talk about war in Kongo. Sri Lanka is just starting again. Or Sudan. How about N.Korea or Burma? Somehow I think it doesn’t interest you so much. Am I right? Now, ask yourself why is it! And you can be angry of being called an anti-semite as much as you can. I am re-inventing it just for you and in your case it’s not “so-called”.
About Gaarder risking his own life: Wake up and just turn the TV on! Rabin (Jew) was killed by a Jew. In Israel. Where in Europe is someone assasinated by jewish citizen in last 30 years just for saying his opinion and not physically making the threat to the SoI?
Of course WWII can’t be explanation for everything Israel is doing today. But somehow, every state has its ow history. WWII is not that far in the past and is present in heads of some Israel citizens. I don’t think this is very unusual. Somehow I think Europeans are more obsessed by holocaust than Israelis themselves.
Comment by dk — August 18, 2006 @ 8:30 am
And, for “being racist”: I can’t actually remember that in a racist state (for example in S.Africa until end of aparthaid) a minor groups were members of parliament. Do you, Bernarda? Again, Israel has it’s own issues. Combination of being religios (jewish) state and being a democracy can’t work on the long run. But, I think Israel is changing already. The last war could actually make these changes come sooner as previously thought.
Comment by dk — August 18, 2006 @ 8:34 am
dk is tripping and has been for a loooong time. wow. i mean…really…wow. insane.
Comment by nile — August 21, 2006 @ 3:37 pm
Answer to dk:
how about this latest war? Who started it? BTW, let’s talk about war in Kongo. Sri Lanka is just starting again. Or Sudan. How about N.Korea or Burma? Somehow I think it doesn’t interest you so much. Am I right? Now, ask yourself why is it!
Verry easy the answer: because the Israel/USA connection says that they defend “our western values - our western freedom”. Thats why so many people look with horrorfied eyes what is happening in Irak and now in Libanon - Massmurder in our name? No - we scream it out from our heart- No. Who`s gonna stop this madness?
Comment by Edda — August 23, 2006 @ 12:28 pm
Ok, Edda
I have to say you’re blind. Keep it to Dalmayr Boxes. That’s something you’re obviously not bad at. For your information; Woodstock, Peace, Sex and Drugs-Times are long time over. Wake up, my dear. BTW, You didn’t answer at all. And Libanon War is over. So chill off, darling.
Comment by dk — August 24, 2006 @ 10:26 am
Edda, a question: Who did try to put the bombs at Koeln Railway Station? Who did try to blow up the planes in London?
I know darling, you’ll say those assholes had a good reason for it, because there are Israel and USA to blame. Those are people who are living among us and really hate our way of life and democracy. You’re really a joke, darling. So much blindness… It’s almost a crime…
Comment by dk — August 24, 2006 @ 10:31 am
I was away a few days and can see nothing changed here. Having no arguments and facrs some nuts are trying to provoke me. Not going to happen…
So after this war I have to say Israel did what it had to do. it didn’t succeed since they were not having clear goal how to win the war. But, Hisbollah is pushed away up to the north. Just to hope that Europeans are going to pull their finger out of their asses and sent the troops to IMPLEMENT the peace. I have to say France is a really disgrace. They pushed for the UN-Resolution saying they’ll gonna send troops and now they’re backing off. Americans are just right when they say that french are just talking hot air and doing nothing. Gladly there is Italy and Germany… Hopefully there is going to be eternal peace.
Comment by dk — August 24, 2006 @ 5:43 pm